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A Storie Moste Offensive

  • May. 5th, 2008 at 7:09 AM
Something Shocking
"The Stolen Word" is live at Fantasy Magazine. 

After sixty comments (some of which were posted under a pseudonym) I felt compelled to add:

In which I attempt to clarify and own my mistakes:

1) The original draft of the story used both “gypsy” and “tinker” because I was wholly unaware of the racial/derogatory connotations of those words. I’ve read a lot of very old folktales that referenced the threat that the child would be sold to the gypsies, and that was the springboard for this piece.

That very much demonstrates both my ignorance and my white privilege.

2) The very first market I sent this story to was Clarkesworld. Nick Mamatas’s scathing rejection of the piece made it very clear that he thought it was racist. He said (and I’m paraphrasing, because I’ve since deleted the rejection) that he’d no more buy a story that featured a child being sold to the tinkers, the gypsies, the gitano or any other racial slur than he would a story in which Jews bought children to grind them into matza. (Please see the commentary made by “Djano Schmeinhardt” on the storythread. It reads like the same argument, and if it’s Nick, I wish he would have posted under his real name.)

3) I was absolutely horrified to realize the first draft of the story read as racist or bigoted. I immediately went to do research into both the nomadic peoples of Europe and folkloric devices. The piece was never intended to further negative racial stereotypes; it was supposed to be about a heroine that refuses to conform. Both gentlemen at the heart of this discussion have asserted that the child being sold is the crux of the story, but I disagree.

4) Because I disagreed with Mr. Mamatas (but did not want to offend anyone of Romani or Irish descent) I examined the roles in the story and renamed everyone so that there was no racial implication. I needed a man and woman traveling and that was it; this was not a commentary on any itinerant peoples. Nothing was ever implied in this story that the couple intended her for any evil purposes, as evidenced by Mr. Mamatas’ suggestion that the problem could be fixed merely by giving her to the fairies or businessmen. Obviously, he still feels that the story didn’t go far enough to remedy the perceived racial and negative stereotyping.

5) The part I find most disturbing is that Mr. Mamatas is posting under a pseudonym with objections to things that, for the most part, no longer exist in the story. Protected by his anonymity, he is building an argument against my previous ignorance. It is everyone’s right to be offended by this story for whatever reason. Readers can also be horrified by my previous ignorance. What they perhaps should not be doing is judging a version of the story was not published here.

Someone did ask about my surname, and I am married to a Bulgarian, which doesn’t really have anything to do with anything because I was immersed in old fairy tales from the time I could read.

Comments

[info]maryrobinette wrote:
May. 5th, 2008 03:16 pm (UTC)
I think my offensiometer must be set wrong, because I just don't see where the uproar is coming from.

Good story, Lisa!
[info]lisamantchev wrote:
May. 5th, 2008 03:18 pm (UTC)
Hey Mary, I'm glad you liked it, as I value your opinion HIGHLY.

I very much understand the knee-jerk reaction to the plot device of selling a child to the peddlers, but I tried to be very careful about who behaved badly in the story, limiting it to my naughty little protagonist.

I hate the idea that I've offended anyone, but this morning has also been a lot of *facepalm* and *headdesk*
(no subject) - [info]maryrobinette - May. 5th, 2008 03:22 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]david_de_beer wrote:
May. 5th, 2008 03:27 pm (UTC)
I'm shocked I tell you, shocked.
[info]lisamantchev wrote:
May. 5th, 2008 04:38 pm (UTC)
Ah well. Perhaps better to have a lengthy discussion than to have no one comment on the story at all.
[info]daibheid wrote:
May. 5th, 2008 04:30 pm (UTC)
lisa, i liked this story.

i threaten to sell my children on ebay all the time (to which my son cutely replies, "too late ebay!" with the biggest shit-eating grin you've ever seen)

the story is clearly fiction, a dark piece of fiction, but not to be taken as advocating trafficking in children (or starting wars and random beheadings, btw). i'm actually worried more about the kingdom run by a sadomasochistic 8-year-old and his dominatrix wife :P

on a side note, have you seen the role-playing game, "changeling: the lost," by white wolf? if you're into rpgs, i suggest checking it out.
[info]lisamantchev wrote:
May. 5th, 2008 04:38 pm (UTC)
It must be a parenting thing... Whenever the child did anything naughty, I used to sing-song, "Baby for saaaaaale."

The other day, she made a huge mess. All I did was lift my eyebrow and she grinned and said, "Baby for sale?"

That in and of itself would probably offend some people.
[info]all_ephemera wrote:
May. 5th, 2008 05:26 pm (UTC)
Apparently the whole Romi/Roma thing is just really sticking in their collective craws. Next time, sell the children to the editors. ;)
[info]lisamantchev wrote:
May. 5th, 2008 08:15 pm (UTC)
Apparently, I could have sold them to anyone else and that would have been all right. Which is rather an offensive thought, in and of itself.
(no subject) - [info]all_ephemera - May. 5th, 2008 08:18 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 5th, 2008 08:21 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]will_couvillier wrote:
May. 5th, 2008 06:12 pm (UTC)
I read both the story and the ensuing banter, and have to admit that the whole has been one entertaining read...

Two thoughts: Very entertaining story. People have too much time on their hands.
[info]lisamantchev wrote:
May. 5th, 2008 08:15 pm (UTC)
I'm glad you liked it and that you were not offended. :)
(no subject) - [info]will_couvillier - May. 5th, 2008 08:26 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]barbhendee wrote:
May. 5th, 2008 08:07 pm (UTC)
Oh, Lisa . . . this boggles my mind, and calls for my favorite eye rolling expression. "Oh, green goddess on a cracker."

The next thing someone will be complaining about is the negative portrayal of pirates in fiction.

Philippa Gregory made a small fortune on the third novel in her Wideacre series: Meridon.

Here is the novel review by PW:

"With this elaborate tapestry of a young woman's life, the Lacey family trilogy ( Wideacre and The Favored Child ) comes to a satisfying conclusion. Meridon is the lost child whose legacy is the estate of Wideacre. She and her very different sister, Dandy, were abandoned as infants and raised in a gypsy encampment, learning horsetrading and other tricks of survival. They are indentured to a circus master whose traveling show is made successful by Meridon's equestrian flair and Dandy's seductive beauty on the trapeze. Meridon's escape from this world is fueled by pregnant Dandy's murder and her own obsessive dream of her ancestral home. After claiming Wideacre, Meridon succumbs for a while to the temptation of the "quality" social scene, but eventually she comes to her senses, and, in a tricky card game near the end of the saga, triumphs fully. The hard-won homecoming in this historical novel is richly developed and impassioned. Doubleday Book Club alternate."

This is Barb again. The gypsies here are pretty hard core and to the best of my knowledge, no one has taken Ms. Gregory to task. Lots of people enjoy stories about gypsies. We have some in the Noble Dead world, but J.C. named them the Móndyalítko . . . but they are clearly gypsies and popular characters.
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 5th, 2008 08:14 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]all_ephemera - May. 5th, 2008 08:19 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]haddayr - May. 5th, 2008 11:40 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]david_de_beer - May. 6th, 2008 07:56 am (UTC) Expand
[info]haddayr wrote:
May. 5th, 2008 11:38 pm (UTC)
I hope I have not been rude in coming to your journal to comment, but I just have to repeat what I said as a comment to your story over at the site, which I actually enjoyed even as I was wincing (and I did wince, even though I am not, to my knowledge descended from Roma or Travelers): just because you didn't mean to offend doesn't mean you didn't say something offensive. Or that you shouldn't listen. And I think you've said this yourself in your comment above.

And to those commenting in this LJ: just because the people complaining aren't using nice tones of voice doesn't mean they don't have a point.

As for the guy who was "itching for a fight:" it's so hard to listen to your ethnic group maligned over and over without becoming raw about it. I don't think he was itching for a fight. I think he was quite honestly hurt.

Again: don't mean to pick a fight with you in your journal. I feel that you tried to address this issue and just didn't go far enough. I think your heart is in the right place.

Again -- apologies for barging in here.
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 12:15 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]haddayr - May. 6th, 2008 01:00 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 02:38 am (UTC) Expand
[info]marshall_payne wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 03:02 am (UTC)
Now that the brouhaha may have quieted down a bit, let me say that I love this story, Lis.

“It was the right sort of day to sell a child to the peddlers.”

Do you realize how offensive this is?



Being a telemarketer (the most hated group on the planet) that makes me a peddler, I guess. I was horribly offended at first, but I got over it. Must be your stellar prose that won me over. ;)
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 03:08 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]marshall_payne - May. 6th, 2008 03:16 am (UTC) Expand
[info]neo_prodigy wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 04:59 am (UTC)
I just sent you a message which may shed some light on the situation.
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 05:13 am (UTC) Expand
[info]wendigomountain wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 06:12 am (UTC)
I await my cigarette and blindfold for the following comments
The whole outrage about your story is...well, outrageous! Historically speaking, people of many cultures HAVE sold their children. Many are still doing it! WORLDWIDE!

Some cultures even performed human sacrifice with their children as offerings. Other cultures force their daughters into marriages, pimp them out in the sex trade, mutilate their bodies and keep them uneducated generation after generation.

Taking offense at something and denouncing it does not erase it. It doesn't make the ugly stains on history disappear.

So, why the hell can't we discuss these things in fiction? I think it's important to do so. Crucial even.

Yes, we should be mindful of what we say and how we say it, but it seems like your story has struck a nerve.

That being said, I read the flamewar before I read your story. I must change what I have said above and say this: WTF?! Did they even read the same thing I did? Baby blood for matza? Romani? Gypsies? Racism? My head is reeling. I need a nap to recover from this tom-f*ckery.

If folks are offended, I'm glad. They deserve to have their bubbles popped and maybe realize not everything in this world is about them. And if they haven't threatened their children with selling them to carnies, gypsies, travellers, tinkers, elves, hobos, changelings, witches, the Baba Yaga, Dracula, or the Siberian labor camps, then they aren't doing their jobs as parents! :) Actually DOING any of these IS bad parenting.

Beautiful story. Once again, I am impressed. Sorry for the long-winded comment.
[info]endelarin wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 10:12 am (UTC)
I read the story before the comments and thought it was as charming a tale of the egocentricity of childhood as I've ever read. This girl totally controls everyone and everything around her. The story captures brilliantly the mind of a two-year old (a state from which many humans never quite emerge0. I had a child like that. Though I never threatened to sell him to gypsies, there were times I wanted to give him away to the nearest couple at the mall.

After reading the comments, though, I felt like I must be the most ignorant and uninformed of readers, because it never occurred to me that peddlers were always Roma or gypsies or any other ethnic group. When I was growing up, the peddler on our street (yes, we had a peddler who would come around in a beat up truck sharpening and selling knives and kitchen towels and stuff like that) was named Mr. McNamara. I always thought he was Irish. It's quite a lot to assume a word will conjure up only one's own associations.

Anyway, I thought the comments got off onto a self-propagating track, and had less to do with the story than other people's politics. The story is wicked good, and lays bare some of current Western society's assumptions about childhood, such as that children are precious and sweet (um, not all of them!), that they need adult protection to survive (to an extent, but they're pretty darn good at survival themselves!), and how parents who can't control a child just throw up their hands and let the child have its way, a la the little prince, who we know will grow up to be a despot with a horrid wife. But isn't that the real way of the world? Well done.

Sorry for the long comment. Just wanted to let you know about another reader who had no problem at all with your story!
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 02:02 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]endelarin - May. 6th, 2008 02:32 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 02:40 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]marshall_payne - May. 6th, 2008 03:25 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 08:04 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]shaolingrrl wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 06:38 pm (UTC)
Good god. There's been a lot of good discussion on this, and I don't know that I have much to add. Except do not try not to offend. You write spice, not gruel, and those without the appetite for your work are the ones lacking. You cannot assume their dietary restrictions, or your own writing will taste like dust in your mouth.

Now that I've totally exhausted what could be an unfortunate metaphor, go have some chocolate.
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 06:47 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]shaolingrrl - May. 6th, 2008 07:08 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 07:20 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]shaolingrrl - May. 6th, 2008 07:39 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 08:10 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]shaolingrrl - May. 6th, 2008 08:16 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 08:27 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]shaolingrrl - May. 6th, 2008 08:39 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 08:43 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]shaolingrrl - May. 6th, 2008 08:53 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 08:55 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]shaolingrrl - May. 6th, 2008 09:08 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 09:11 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]erzebet wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 06:53 pm (UTC)
It is a fantastic story and I very much enjoyed it. I can't wait to read more of your work. :)
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 06:56 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]erzebet - May. 6th, 2008 07:23 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 07:28 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]shaolingrrl wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 07:11 pm (UTC)
BTW, as much as I like Nick in person and respect his intelligence and abilities, when he gets like this the best thing to do is just ignore him.
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 07:23 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]shaolingrrl - May. 6th, 2008 07:41 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 07:48 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]shaolingrrl - May. 6th, 2008 07:56 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 6th, 2008 08:07 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]daydreammuse wrote:
May. 7th, 2008 02:32 pm (UTC)
I didn't read tehs tory, because I have no time right now and by the looks of it you explore a tale about faeries being given human children. I know that gypsies havethe same fame in fairy tales to either steal children or buy them. I don't see where the problem is frankly. I bet if an author from another race be it whatever, we have a lot, writes the same, but with caucasian people as the bad guys it won't be deemed as racist, because we are used to caucasian represented are do-gooders and evil-doers, whiel when people represent minorities in bad light it's called racism. I am very confused. Am I making sense and I am not trying to be racist, I am not. Just drawing conclusions.
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 7th, 2008 09:06 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]silviamg wrote:
May. 7th, 2008 06:29 pm (UTC)
Hey Lisa,

You got me to finally sign-up for Livejournal. I read your story at Fantasy and then the comments that followed. Let me say that first of all I have enjoyed some of your previous fiction, specially The Girl With Blueberry Eyes.

I appreciated reading your explanation on the story and I don't think you intended anything evil, but it obviously offended some people and I do believe those comments should be taken seriously, which you have. So high-five for that.

What shocked me about the discussion was how many people threw the "it's just a fantasy story" excuse around, which to be seemed unfair to both you and the genre as a whole.

As I said over at Fantasy saying it’s just “fantasy fiction” or “speculative fiction” diminishes the importance of this type of fiction. It’s like saying it doesn’t matter because it’s not really literature, so it doesn’t deal with issues of any real importance.

(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 7th, 2008 09:05 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]upstart_crow wrote:
May. 7th, 2008 08:55 pm (UTC)
JoSelle, here. I haven't yet had time to read the story, but I'm peripherally aware of the imbroglio surrounding it. I friended you, too, because your reply to criticisms of your work was honest and respectful, and I admire people who can do that when being criticized :).

I'll read the story soon and see what I think.
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 7th, 2008 09:01 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]upstart_crow - May. 7th, 2008 09:03 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev - May. 7th, 2008 09:20 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]biomekanic wrote:
May. 8th, 2008 04:23 pm (UTC)
Here via newroticgirl
I skimmed the story, and I liked it. When I'm able to focus for more than a minute ( which will coincide with some rain to wash all the frakin' pollen out of the air ) I will give it a closer read.

I think you handled the criticism very well.

Also, I've added you to my friends list, if you don't mind.

Edited at 2008-05-08 04:24 pm (UTC)
Re: Here via newroticgirl - [info]lisamantchev - May. 8th, 2008 05:39 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]ceelee wrote:
May. 10th, 2008 11:59 pm (UTC)
Read your story,
enjoyed it, found it non-offensive, delighted in the world you painted. I have learned a lot from reading all the comments it generated. I do love the internets for having such good discussions and interesting and diverse people. My eyes have been opened about how something can be offensive without even trying to be and I will be very careful about how I think about others now that I know as a "privileged" person I have a limited view. (isn't that a bit of a stereotype, too?)

I am looking forward to reading your other stories.
Cheers,
C.
Re: Read your story, - [info]lisamantchev - May. 11th, 2008 12:07 am (UTC) Expand
[info]eldereft wrote:
May. 21st, 2008 03:06 am (UTC)
I only just got around to reading this, and quite enjoyed. Ascribe that to the cultural blinders of my Euro-American upbringing if you feel like it. The average physics department provides plenty of opportunities to be racist, classist, or sexist, so I at least try to be both precise and aware when speaking. I find to be of particular interest the research on implicit assumptions and the disjoint between stated conscious prejudices and measured unconscious (often suppressed) biases. Here is a neat site that was written up in Scientific American a while back. They have a number of association tests correlating response time to unconscious bias - classifying a word as positive or negative when shown alongside a face, for instance. Not that it is necessarily relevant, I just happen to enjoy that sort of poking at brain function and was put in mind of it by skimming through the discussion here. The good news for humanity is that being aware of unconscious biases makes us less likely accidentally to act on them.

More to the point, I am not quite sure why I enjoy so much that of your fiction that I have read. It scratches a distinctly different literary urge than, for instance, the 'here is something neat, let us see what effect it has' style storytelling of Mieville or Banks, two of my current favorite authors. After much pondering, I think that at least part of it is the immersion in an internally consistent yet foreign logic system. Your prose does not exercise mathematically rigorous realism (duh), but nonetheless it has a certain sense of inevitability (as an evoked feeling, not as in trite or predictable). Neither does it disturb the illusion when influences that would be inconsequential in real life are revealed to be of transformative importance - for the duration of the narrative, this is perfectly reasonable.

Alternatively, it might just be that I enjoy clever and quirky.